Friendship Breakups in Menopause: Can I Miss Her and Still Be Done?

Andrea Knoche (: 00:00

What if we told you that one of the biggest heartbreaks in midlife isn't divorce, but it's actually losing a friend?

Ozzie Osborne (: 00:06

I would have to do something I'd never done before, which was break up with a friend.

Andrea Knoche (: 00:41

but not every friendship is meant to last forever. So today I would love for each of us to reflect on a friendship that changed us in some way. Maybe it ended unexpectedly, maybe it slowly faded, maybe you're still grieving it. Or maybe letting it

Ozzie Osborne (: 00:54

Mm.

Andrea Knoche (: 00:55

go was one of the healthiest decisions you ever made. So who

Ozzie Osborne (: 00:59

huh.

Andrea Knoche (: 00:59

wants to start?

Ozzie Osborne (: 01:00

So one in particular was a best friend that I I still have. she was a best friend. We realized that early on, in in I think when my kids were babies,

she witnessed my babies being born. She was, she was always there. but we've we realized we were a bit enmeshed. There was this this realization. So at one point we both came to, well, we're just not aligning, and maybe the best thing to do is to just take a break. And in that break, I didn't anticipate not being invited to her wedding, not being invited to not seeing her baby being born, just missing a lot of big milestones for her.

And to this day I even will make note of that or make mention of that that I really I I'm sad that I didn't get to witness it or I I miss that. And eventually after my divorce and then the end of her marriage, we ended up reconnecting and we formed a different kind of a friendship. we changed the rules a bit. we understood each other differently. We were in a different space and we so we've

continue to be friends. but there was another friendship that I came across with a woman who I got very close to her she was diagnosed with stage four cancer, breast cancer. And I felt that I was there for her, but then what unfolded was discovery that they that there was some infidelity on her side with multiple people.

And at first there was there was a a big moment of understanding and a big moment of of forgiving and also just having space for her to have made choices that may not have aligned for her in in her life. I realized she was struggling a lot and we we did a little bit of work on together. We'd we just like let's talk about it, let's uncover this, let's figure out what where this might have come from. And we spent a lot of time talking about it and then

It seemed as though, my my encouragement was to seek support. and I thought they they were doing well until months later her husband called me again crying and shared with me that they that he found out that there was more stuff that she hadn't told me about. and then one of which was with some a mutual friend that we knew. And at that point I

Andrea Knoche (: 03:05

Mm-hmm.

Ozzie Osborne (: 03:06

had to ask myself, Is this aligned with

my values.

Junie Moon (: 03:11

Yeah.

Ozzie Osborne (: 03:12

and and my answer was a clear no. And I realized that I would have to do something I'd never done before, which was break up with a friend.

Andrea Knoche (: 03:21

Mm.

Ozzie Osborne (: 03:22

And so I I I probably didn't play this right, but I did did the best I could with what I knew. I sent a a text message and I just said, look, I this has been brought to my attention again. I know you're going through something. I really I I can't

be there to watch you hurt so many people in your life. I'm not giving you all the details, of course, in case she's listening, because I don't think it's my story to share. but there was more details to it, enough for me to say, this no longer can be in my life. I I don't know if I brought a significant other around would would she attempt

Andrea Knoche (: 03:55

yeah. What would happen?

Ozzie Osborne (: 03:56

something and I just didn't want to

risk it but I also just really sat with that question. D is this aligned with my values? And and when it was a clear no, I knew I had to to let go of that. And I think what was really hard was also the knowledge that she is dying of cancer. And so, it was really hard because her reaction was very angry.

And then it was spiteful. And then there were a few times where she would leave me nasty messages or nasty DMs. And I understood it was it was her pain. and I understood where she was coming from. she felt abandoned. She felt that I, had dropped everything. I made sure to to say to her that I'm I'm open to, if you give me some time, and you seek some help, I'm willing to reconnect and and talk.

figure out where we're at. and I think we've made a few attempts and it just never happened. So that's

Junie Moon (: 04:47

Mm.

Ozzie Osborne (: 04:48

my story. And it's sad because I think about her a lot and I I send her

love all the time. I send her messages just to let

Dawn Wiggins (: 04:54

I love that.

Ozzie Osborne (: 04:54

her know that I still pray for her. I still love her. She's still my heart, but there's always an opening to to have a

conversation as to why that why I had to let that go at that time.

Andrea Knoche (: 05:05

Mm. I think one of the hardest

Junie Moon (: 05:06

You know.

Andrea Knoche (: 05:07

parts with friendships

Ozzie Osborne (: 05:07

Okay.

Andrea Knoche (: 05:08

is that fine line of ride or die, friend, and then respecting your own values, right? Because we can do just that. a a ride or die would be like, Hey, you are with me through thick and thin, right? I'm bearing a body, you're asking me, you're bringing the shovel, right? and so I think that's a big thing when you are

supposed to be that person for someone and their biggest champion. And then when they're going through something like that, which it sounds like because of the cancer, she was probably acting out, right? Lashing out and doing things she probably would have never done. Yeah.

Ozzie Osborne (: 05:39

yes, and it this

was we found out this was happening actually years prior. this was happening for a long time. This was this is

Andrea Knoche (: 05:45

so yeah.

Laurie Gerber (: 05:45

Well, this seems to

me like a values mismatch. And you guys

Ozzie Osborne (: 05:49

Mm-hmm.

Laurie Gerber (: 05:49

know I teach the

Andrea Knoche (: 05:49

Mm.

Laurie Gerber (: 05:50

three H's, the head, the heart, and the hoo-ha. And it's the same with friendship, right? Sometimes

Ozzie Osborne (: 05:52

Mm-hmm. Exactly. Mm-hmm.

Andrea Knoche (: 05:53

Mm.

Laurie Gerber (: 05:55

we pick a friend, and I know I have picked friends

Andrea Knoche (: 05:57

Mm.

Laurie Gerber (: 05:58

for two out of the three, right? They look good on paper, they serve an intellectual need, and they

Dawn Wiggins (: 06:01

Yeah, uh-huh. Mm-hmm.

Laurie Gerber (: 06:04

look good to my audience, right? there's something that's

Andrea Knoche (: 06:06

Mm.

Laurie Gerber (: 06:07

in it for me, but the trust isn't there or the values alignment isn't there.

Andrea Knoche (: 06:10

Mm.

Laurie Gerber (: 06:11

That's actually

I can only think of a few times I've ever lost friends or given up friends, and it was for the same reason as you're saying, Ozzie, which was like,

Andrea Knoche (: 06:18

Mm.

Laurie Gerber (: 06:19

no, I can't, I only have 24 hours in a day. I can't give my attention. And it's one thing if they want my help, right? I get turned on by that. Would and I think, Ozzy, you were in the same boat. But if they don't want my help and our values don't align, that is now not a three-age match. And I don't think I

Dawn Wiggins (: 06:34

What's left? Mm-hmm. Wow. So well said.

Ozzie Osborne (: 06:36

Mm-hmm.

Laurie Gerber (: 06:37

would be a ride or die.

To anybody I wasn't really sure was a three match deep down to the

Andrea Knoche (: 06:43

Yeah.

Laurie Gerber (: 06:43

core of values.

Ozzie Osborne (: 06:45

Mm-hmm. And

Andrea Knoche (: 06:45

Yeah.

Ozzie Osborne (: 06:46

I didn't have that to to, at the time I before I ev I got to that that that decision, I was a write a die. I still am a write or die. I again I don't fall off the face of the earth. I'm always open to re reassessing any friendship and relationship and and 'cause I I feel like yes, they're at the we have core values. And I also know and believe that people do heal and people do if they're doing the work and if they're choosing to.

our values eventually can can align or not. I don't know. I'm open to being available for it. But

but nor normally I don't I don't know if I

Laurie Gerber (: 07:18

Wow. You're more generous than I am, Ozzy. That's what I love about you. You're very generous.

Ozzie Osborne (: 07:23

I don't know if I would call that generous, right? 'cause I th I I I I don't know if if if I don't know. I don't know if it's generosity or it's just it's just I don't know. I don't I you all know I hang on to shit

Andrea Knoche (: 07:36

Yeah, well I was gonna

Junie Moon (: 07:36

You know, I I

I

Andrea Knoche (: 07:37

say

Junie Moon (: 07:38

go ahead.

Andrea Knoche (: 07:39

Well, I was just gonna ask her, does it feel like a curse? you know what I mean? It can feel like a curse because I'm the same way. I hold on to things way too long. X men in my life that have completely hurt me. They're still lingering around. And so sometimes I feel like, yeah, it's great to be that person that doesn't hold a grudge, that lets things just, roll off their back, but also it's a bit of a curse sometimes because I don't want to be so kind all the time.

Laurie Gerber (: 08:00

Yeah. It's a little fishy

guys. It's a little fishy it's a little fishy.

Ozzie Osborne (: 08:04

It's fishy.

Dawn Wiggins (: 08:05

I agree.

Yeah.

Ozzie Osborne (: 08:06

It's fishy.

you obviously don't wanna

Andrea Knoche (: 08:07

It

Ozzie Osborne (: 08:07

hang on to toxic relationships or toxic behaviors, right? that's not that's not I I don't I I I don't I don't have friends that are just lingering around just just hanging around and today I don't. I I I think that was the the turning point for me where I was like, I I could still be loving

I don't have to I I'm not obligated to be a to be in relationship with someone who I am not aligned with with my values. Like it's just it

Andrea Knoche (: 08:34

Aligned with. Mm-hmm.

Laurie Gerber (: 08:35

Right. Right.

Ozzie Osborne (: 08:36

just ha I just had to keep reminding me myself of that. And it's hard, but I just have to, it's like, yeah, but she's she has cancer and yeah, but why wouldn't I want somebody

Andrea Knoche (: 08:44

Yeah.

Ozzie Osborne (: 08:45

to be there for me? And I'm like, Yeah, but yes, and I also I'm also at a place where I get to be discerning about who I align myself with because it matters.

Andrea Knoche (: 08:54

Yeah. Mm.

Ozzie Osborne (: 08:55

So that's

that's where where I I don't think it's a curse. I think it was just bad habits. It was it was me not knowing that I I can have I have permission to let go of people 'cause letting go of people was also attached to me not wanting to be abandoned and not and therefore not wanting to abandon anybody else. But it's but that's not my story to tell.

Junie Moon (: 09:14

See it as letting her go though. What I s what I'm hearing

Ozzie Osborne (: 09:17

Yeah.

Junie Moon (: 09:18

is your love is still there. It's like almost like a shift in your relationship with certain boundaries, certain guidelines of your heart, this isn't aligned anymore, this doesn't work for me anymore, and that you're still, air quotes, in you know, in this relationship of loving her, and it's not fitting the the paradigm that you had before.

in relationship. And I just want to just

Ozzie Osborne (: 09:44

Exactly.

Junie Moon (: 09:44

acknowledge you for your clarity of what works for you, what is not working for you, like really

Ozzie Osborne (: 09:51

Mm-hmm.

Junie Moon (: 09:52

deep self-care and navigating what I see as very challenging for people like us, because I'm also in that category of it's hard to let go of people and to be able to go, I'm gonna let go in this way. Because I'm not hearing door like sealed. I'm hearing

Ozzie Osborne (: 10:09

Mm mm. Mm mm.

Junie Moon (: 10:11

protection

of this is is not good for me and I love you still. You know,

Ozzie Osborne (: 10:15

Yeah.

Junie Moon (: 10:15

and that that spectrum of what is relationship, what is friendship, that it's a new flavor. yeah.

Ozzie Osborne (: 10:22

Well and you and you

just you just said it. I I don't think we ever let go of people. I think we let go of the part of us that that is attached to something

Junie Moon (: 10:30

Yeah, yeah.

Ozzie Osborne (: 10:31

or someone. and that's what I let go of. So so yeah, that's

Junie Moon (: 10:34

Yeah.

Ozzie Osborne (: 10:34

a good distinction.

Junie Moon (: 10:36

Yeah.

Andrea Knoche (: 10:37

Mm mm. Juni, you want to share yours?

Junie Moon (: 10:40

Okay.

Andrea Knoche (: 10:42

Mm-hmm.

Junie Moon (: 10:43

it's like when we were talking about the dog, and are we, you know, Lori saying, Are we avoiding the topic? I was like, maybe. You know, in fact, I wasn't even sure

Dawn Wiggins (: 10:49

Yeah.

Andrea Knoche (: 10:49

Ha ha.

Junie Moon (: 10:51

what the topic was today. I'm like, it's either gonna be the friendship one or the the other episode. I'm like, So yeah,

Laurie Gerber (: 10:54

You're holistically avoiding it.

Karen Viesta (: 10:56

Yeah.

Junie Moon (: 11:00

mentioned this on another another episode, and I'm not sure which one it was, but it was another friendship one where

one of my besties. We've been, in and out of each other's life since first grade. And, different chapters of our life. But the last chapter was, gosh, a good 30 years. So pretty significant chapter. And something went down about a year ago. And the relationship shifted, you know, this just happened. This isn't aligned. We couldn't get on the same page.

pulling back. I it I'm a little all over the place in what this means to me now. as I've continued to work on it, as I as I dream about her almost every night. If I remember a dream, she's almost always in it. It's like the lost.

Dawn Wiggins (: 11:43

You should mention that to your homeopath.

Andrea Knoche (: 11:46

Ha ha ha.

Karen Viesta (: 11:46

Hahaha

Junie Moon (: 11:47

Don't you think?

Laurie Gerber (: 11:54

I think that yeah.

Karen Viesta (: 11:50

You

Dawn Wiggins (: 11:51

Yes.

Laurie Gerber (: 11:55

Yeah. Interesting.

Junie Moon (: 11:55

And and so this this this theme

of loss and letting go and and healing, it it's like it's not just her, it's the whole letting go thing, you know. so what I want to speak to about friendship is yeah, our friendship has evolved in different ways, and so have I. I'm not the same person as I was 30 years ago or five years ago for that matter. And coming to this place of we don't see the same things.

in the same way. We've always been like that, you what's a good example when you're like compl like the odd couple, let's let's do that, s complete opposite, but we to me we've been sisters, so

Andrea Knoche (: 12:36

Yeah.

Junie Moon (: 12:36

what like what I was saying with Ozzy, it's like door's still open. I know I can pick up the phone and call her, and I have a couple of times in the last year. I haven't seen her in over year. It blows my mind. But anyway, there's

There's a disconnect. There is a mismatch. There's we were not

able to get to a place where there was the healing. There was the rupture, but there was not the repair. And I did everything I could. And then I had to go, okay, surrender. But pulling back what I I want to offer to this conversation is friendships, the season. She's not in my season right now.

Ozzie Osborne (: 13:13

Perfect.

Junie Moon (: 13:13

She was there for a reason. She's still in my heart. I love her dearly. That's not gonna change. And being with this stage of life, and I even mentioned this to you guys in texting earlier, it's like, early 60s, it's like looking at my body changing, looking at my business changing, looking at how I look at my life changing, everything is in flux right now. And it's a letting go across the board of what was and what is now.

And I look as to friendship like that too. There are people that fit. There are new people that come in, like you guys, that I'm like, my God, fit. And things change. And so I'm just

Andrea Knoche (: 13:52

Mm.

Junie Moon (: 13:52

navigating that things changed with that. There's a loss and a sadness and a kind of what the

Andrea Knoche (: 13:57

Yeah.

Junie Moon (: 13:58

fuck? How could we not have repaired? But it takes two. It takes two. And it wasn't there.

Ozzie Osborne (: 14:02

Yeah, and Juni, how do you how

Andrea Knoche (: 14:03

Yeah.

Ozzie Osborne (: 14:04

do you think you you work with the grief

of the loss? Mm-hmm.

Junie Moon (: 14:08

How do I work with the grief?

Ozzie Osborne (: 14:09

Yeah.

Junie Moon (: 14:11

I work with it in different ways. I mean, a lot of it I just am with it. I allow myself, this morning I was just feeling some things. And instead of getting full or active or going on a walk and listening to a podcast, for me, it was like being with my emotions and allowing them to express. And then there's processing. I'll do some shadow work stuff where there's certain processes where I could be in my

Andrea Knoche (: 14:33

Yeah.

Junie Moon (: 14:33

grief and then part work.

Bring myself that loving support, that wise support. And reaching out to people. I called, called a lifeline friend. Haven't spoken to her in probably six months. I'm like, it's one of those, one of those days. Can we talk? So there's

Ozzie Osborne (: 14:47

Beautiful.

Junie Moon (: 14:47

there's

Laurie Gerber (: 14:47

Mm.

Junie Moon (: 14:48

lots of different ways, but the biggest thing is just for me is being honest with myself that it's here. I'm not gonna eat over it. I'm not gonna sweep it under the rug. This

Dawn Wiggins (: 14:59

Right.

Junie Moon (: 14:59

is here right now.

And so is

Andrea Knoche (: 15:01

Mm.

Junie Moon (: 15:02

joy and so is curiosity and so is new things and grief and loss and sadness and all the things. The feels

are here. And so just giving it a voice, letting it have a place, because

Andrea Knoche (: 15:15

Yeah.

Junie Moon (: 15:16

I know if I don't give it a voice or a place, it's gonna bite me in the ass. And that's not how I do things anymore.

Ozzie Osborne (: 15:22

The human experience. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Andrea Knoche (: 15:23

Yeah. Mm.

Junie Moon (: 15:24

It's real. It's real. It's the

Laurie Gerber (: 15:26

Guys,

Junie Moon (: 15:26

human experience. And I don't wanna,

Laurie Gerber (: 15:27

you guys.

Junie Moon (: 15:28

spiritual over spiritualise it, spiritual bypass it, you I'm just gonna meditate and home, it's gonna be all good. Yeah, it's like yes, and it's like, yes, I do that. And this is a human experience, right? That

Andrea Knoche (: 15:41

Yeah.

Junie Moon (: 15:42

is sad to me. And I really do think about her

Andrea Knoche (: 15:44

Mm.

Junie Moon (: 15:44

often and I love her and the door is open.

Ozzie Osborne (: 15:48

Mm, beautiful.

Junie Moon (: 15:50

Yeah, thanks.

Andrea Knoche (: 15:50

Yeah.

Okay, thank you for sharing that, Dawn. You are smiling like a Cheshire cat today.

Dawn Wiggins (: 15:59

okay, so first of

Ozzie Osborne (: 15:58

That shire. She a purry

Dawn Wiggins (: 16:00

all

Ozzie Osborne (: 16:00

purry kitty.

Dawn Wiggins (: 16:02

right, my

Andrea Knoche (: 16:02

Mm-hmm.

Dawn Wiggins (: 16:03

ride or die listens to this podcast. So hi friend. yeah. So if something

Andrea Knoche (: 16:07

She's the shovel girl.

Karen Viesta (: 16:06

you

Dawn Wiggins (: 16:10

happened to her, I would have a very different response to this episode. And this topic is causing me to evaluate things on a lot of levels, which I really appreciate, right? But

Laurie Gerber (: 16:19

Mm-hmm.

Dawn Wiggins (: 16:20

if something happened to her.

you would have to scrape me up off the ground, right? She has been there since I was fourteen. We both really feel like we're gap fillers, for our family of origin wounds. And there was a period of time, just a couple of years ago, where I really believe in frequency matching and I am constantly reinventing myself. it's is that a Gemini thing, an Aquarius th I don't know, but it's like constant, right? And

And so we were getting to a place where we were right, our paths were diverging too far. And I

Laurie Gerber (: 16:53

Hmm.

Dawn Wiggins (: 16:53

I started to really fuss, And I was like, listen, I I I'm not saying you have to do it my way, but you gotta do something or else you don't get to be in my inner circle anymore. And I don't know that I said it that brutally, right? But

I do think there's a difference between inner circle, medium circle, outer circle. I learned that in in business, honestly, I don't know, maybe five years ago. And that has been so invaluable to me. So she came along, right? She went, she came with me. Yay! and now we're closer than we've ever, ever, ever, ever been. So that's such a gift. Now, the other thing that I want to say is that I am way too self-reliant. And y'all know that.

Some

of y'all know it really well. And when challenge strikes, my first inclination is to, sit and f feel into it myself and then to get into problem solving mode, it's not to pick up the phone and phone someone. Now I think fifteen years ago my first inclination was to pick up the phone and phone someone, but I think it's because I was outsourcing.

My emotional regulation, right? I wanted to be a verbal processor. I was just a verbal processor, but that's not really true. I actually think I was bypassing feeling, bypassing owning, bypassing actually dealing with some stuff. So I know of myself that it's hard for me to really release unless I'm connected with someone close, right? Unless I'm feeling safe and seen and all of that.

but that is a very rare, precious moment where that happens, right? That inner circle where I can let all my guard down. I've been thinking about what is that about? Cause I've quiet quite a couple of friendships. I don't know that

Andrea Knoche (: 18:28

Mm.

Dawn Wiggins (: 18:29

I'm proud of that, but sometimes also the labor involved in separating, it just the juice isn't

Junie Moon (: 18:34

Mm.

Andrea Knoche (: 18:35

Like.

Dawn Wiggins (: 18:35

worth the squeeze,

Andrea Knoche (: 18:36

Mm.

Dawn Wiggins (: 18:37

and so I think I'm really sensitive to frequency. Are we?

On a similar page, I think I'm really sensitive to victim triangle stuff, right? is this victim rescuer-persecutor triangulation? are we dancing around that? And it are you trying to make me responsible for something that's really yours? I'm very sensitive to that. So

I think that those the friendships I've quite quit, the ones that maybe I avoid. So

I think that when I got divorced, I was 30, and I it was the massive reinvention, right? And I dove into group therapy and I dove into Al-Anon and I dove into all the things and professional development and I really learned that I could make really meaningful connections in a lot of maybe

unusual or I don't know. What there's a Rihanna song about it. w We Found a Love and a does that song go? Anyways, you know what I mean? Something like that, right? Like yeah yeah yeah. I really related to that at that stage in my life. I have

Andrea Knoche (: 19:32

We found a love in a hopeless place.

Laurie Gerber (: 19:36

Yeah, you nailing it today, Andrea.

Karen Viesta (: 19:37

Yeah, that's right.

Junie Moon (: 19:38

Another one for our playlist.

Dawn Wiggins (: 19:41

And

there are women from that season of life that I am still so close to, but that doesn't mean we talk all the time. But it does mean that I will drop everything to fly to their children's wedding or, take the case. Or you know what? I'll do, I'll do whatever. I'm not someone who can be on the phone all the time with friends. I can't do that. I don't have the capacity. I have spent a lot of my life being married to my work. And

Andrea Knoche (: 20:02

Mm-hmm.

Dawn Wiggins (: 20:04

while that's getting better and better and better, I'm just

Yeah,

I don't know. So I really appreciate a friendship that can just trust that I love you to the moon and back and we have a secure relationship and all is well. And if something's wrong, I'll probably tell you. And unless you're one of those few that I've quiet crit. And Yeah. And

Andrea Knoche (: 20:23

You know who you are.

Junie Moon (: 20:24

Yeah.

Laurie Gerber (: 20:24

Yeah.

Ozzie Osborne (: 20:26

How would you know if you quite quit?

Dawn Wiggins (: 20:28

I can really feel the universe like

I think I've been sewing for many years. Many of my dearest friends do like I don't have very many close friends that live where I live, right? They're st all over the and I think that's a new interesting phenomenon with the internet, right? Like some of my

Junie Moon (: 20:42

Yes, very much.

Dawn Wiggins (: 20:44

dearest friends are spread far and wide, and that's hard that we don't get to just brunch together and whatever, right?

Andrea Knoche (: 20:48

Yeah.

Dawn Wiggins (: 20:49

but I do feel like I've been sewing for years to create.

community and people who've got me and they love and accept me for who I am and they can give me the benefit of the doubt and all of that. And I really feel that the reaping is happening, that that there is more and more and more community in my life, friendship in my life, and I have immense clarity about inner and outer circle at this point.

Junie Moon (: 21:12

love that.

Andrea Knoche (: 21:12

Mm.

Wow. Wow. These are really intense today. because it's such an emotional thing, these friendships. It's so hard and it's such a it's a labor of love, which is very, very difficult. well, I'll go next since I'm chatting away over here. just rambling. So yeah, as you were talking, I was thinking about all of my different friendships, and I've always had friends.

all separate, they were never all friends with each other. And

Dawn Wiggins (: 21:36

Mm.

Andrea Knoche (: 21:37

I used to, I honestly used to love that. And I prided myself on that because I'm like, ooh, I've got friends over here and friends over here and this friend. And we did, it felt plentiful to me. And I think it just maximized that for me. And so I always had stuff going on because I had all these different friends. but I always had the few that were, at the top, my certain ones. And

it's become much clearer to me since I I moved from Texas where, they all were pretty much. and so where I am now, you can figure that out pretty quick. who stays in touch, who makes that effort to call you, to check in on you, to come visit you, to open their home to you when you come back to, the place you are, all of those things. And so I started to really look at that. And I have two very, very, very good friends of mine that are great and

we talk a lot, a lot, a lot. And so we're always, just keeping up with that. And then I had one that I lost about two and a half years ago. And it was a 25-year friendship. And yeah, and we grew up together in the way of we met when we were already adults, but we were so similar and we had the same job. we our husbands were the same at the time. Neither of them were working. So we used to chat about that.

our kids were like the same age. Even we drove the same car. there were so many similarities between us and it just made sense. And then as the years went on, it was as I became more single, she was she was more married and I was more singled. And so at that point our stories didn't align as much, right? her husband did the whole thing where he didn't want her hanging out with me because he's worried I'm gonna corrupt her and take her away,

Come to the dark side. And so I think that that was always this glooming thing over us. It made it difficult for us to hang out. I would go back to Texas. She would never ask me to stay at her house. She'd never she's never visited me here in California. And so I really started to notice those things. And then as we would have more conversations, she'd constantly be asking me about my dating stories because she was in intrigued by it.

for somebody that had been married 30 years, it's exciting to hear about somebody else's stories. And then after a while, I don't know if it was just it just became envy or animosity. I'm not sure, but it just became too much. And then one day we just agreed that the friendship was no longer serving either of us. And from that day, we just stopped. It was not a quiet

Laurie Gerber (: 23:57

Well

Andrea Knoche (: 23:58

quit. It was just a straight up quit. Yeah.

Dawn Wiggins (: 23:59

Wow, yeah. Wow.

Laurie Gerber (: 24:01

Wow.

Andrea Knoche (: 24:01

And so about a year ago it was her birthday, and I did

I it was always just in me, just okay, well just reach out and say happy birthday. And so I did. And she had blocked me. And I thought, yeah, and

Dawn Wiggins (: 24:13

The drama.

Andrea Knoche (: 24:15

that that stung because it was like, whoa,

Laurie Gerber (: 24:17

Yeah.

Andrea Knoche (: 24:18

that, because that says a different thing. That says you never want to talk to me again, right?

Laurie Gerber (: 24:21

Right. The door is closed, yeah.

Andrea Knoche (: 24:24

The door is

Junie Moon (: 24:24

Ouch.

Karen Viesta (: 24:24

Yeah.

Andrea Knoche (: 24:24

closed. And so that was really hard for me. whoa, and I don't block

Laurie Gerber (: 24:28

Mm.

Andrea Knoche (: 24:29

people, I'm not a I just

I

don't get unless you are like a stalking me or something, you're gonna get blocked. But

it doesn't it doesn't happen. I said that that happens. but

Junie Moon (: 24:37

Ha ha ha.

Andrea Knoche (: 24:38

I did. I'm like, huh, that's your stalking me. yeah,

Laurie Gerber (: 24:41

Yeah.

Andrea Knoche (: 24:43

just want to clarify that doesn't happen. so it was really hypothetically, if you were stalking me, I'd block you. And if

you're gonna send me a dick pic, I'm gonna cock block you. That is true.

Karen Viesta (: 24:54

you

Laurie Gerber (: 24:54

Yeah.

Andrea Knoche (: 24:54

So that's the only blocking I do.

So know I gotta go there.

Laurie Gerber (: 24:58

Trying not to mess up the

recording by laughing silently. You have to watch me laugh on you on YouTube. my god.

Andrea Knoche (: 25:02

It was okay, it was good. On YouTube. The silent laugh.

so yeah, so she had blocked me and then come know, last this past May, for

Ozzie Osborne (: 25:10

Yeah.

Andrea Knoche (: 25:11

whatever reason, I just thought, let me try again. And my message went through. This time she unblocked me.

Laurie Gerber (: 25:17

What?

Dawn Wiggins (: 25:17

Fascinating.

Laurie Gerber (: 25:20

Andrea, this is quite a story.

Dawn Wiggins (: 25:18

More drama. I'm so confused.

Andrea Knoche (: 25:21

I was blocked and then unblocked.

Ozzie Osborne (: 25:24

Yeah.

Andrea Knoche (: 25:24

Isn't this a story? Yeah, she unblocked me. And if I think of all the things I know, she knew. Which means she could be listening.

Laurie Gerber (: 25:27

Apparently you are on her radar if she's changing your status. Whoa.

Dawn Wiggins (: 25:32

See, but this is what I'm saying about the victim triangle.

I can't do it. I can't do it. That. Whatever that is.

Karen Viesta (: 25:35

Yeah, agreed.

Andrea Knoche (: 25:37

Yeah. Yeah.

Junie Moon (: 25:38

I know. I don't have the patience.

Andrea Knoche (: 25:40

Well, that's

Junie Moon (: 25:40

Yep.

Andrea Knoche (: 25:40

a lot, right? And there was no she didn't tell me, she didn't reach out to me

Dawn Wiggins (: 25:43

Right.

Andrea Knoche (: 25:43

and go, hey, I'm blocked you. It was just me going, Hey, let me try again. It's Mother's Day. Let me try again. And it went through. And she responded. And so this was very interesting. She came back. We chatted. I know. We chatted a little bit. And then we both did a little apology thing of, we're just maybe going through a bad time and it just didn't mesh.

And I had just had all of this stuff happen. My mom passed away that she didn't know. she was having her daughter moved out, her son has a new girlfriend, all of these life-changing things had happened. A lot of life.

Junie Moon (: 26:14

Lot of life. Again, lots of life. Yeah.

Laurie Gerber (: 26:16

Mm-hmm.

Andrea Knoche (: 26:18

Yeah. And so we just started spilling all of it. And then she said, when we did the apology, she said, I really hope this is the start of us reconnecting. And

Ozzie Osborne (: 26:26

Mm.

Andrea Knoche (: 26:26

I said, I would love this too. We've not spoken again since that day.

Dawn Wiggins (: 26:31

Interesting. another

Andrea Knoche (: 26:32

yeah.

Dawn Wiggins (: 26:34

best friend. We have been best friends since I was nine and she was six. So

Andrea Knoche (: 26:39

Mm.

Dawn Wiggins (: 26:39

these two friends of mine, right? they're so invaluable to me because there are times, when we forget who we are. And I can call either

Andrea Knoche (: 26:45

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dawn Wiggins (: 26:46

of them and be like, remind me who I am. Because they've seen it all. You know what I mean?

Like every boyfriend.

every parental, everything they've seen it all, right? Now she's not married. And I am. And so our lives are not the same. She's constant she's in Paris. She's in Monaco. She's at a hockey game. She's like she's, she doesn't have kids. She's not married. We have very different lifestyles. last year, I was on my way back from a Disney cruise. And I

Andrea Knoche (: 27:12

Shocking.

Dawn Wiggins (: 27:13

Hopped into Epcot and I texted her that morning. I was like, hey, meet me in Epcot. She was she only lives 90 minutes away. She's like, be there in an hour. And she hopped in the car and she met me there and we were hanging out and all that. She's my daughter's godmother. Okay. Left that detail, buried the lead. Okay.

Andrea Knoche (: 27:27

Mm.

Dawn Wiggins (: 27:30

And I was like, should we talk more? She's like, No, we're fine. What else are we gonna say? We've been friends for 40 years. what else are we gonna say? There's like

Andrea Knoche (: 27:36

Yeah. Wow.

Ozzie Osborne (: 27:38

Well, I guess it

also depends on what your what your measurement of friendship is and

what do you need in a friendship, right? maybe Don you don't need

Dawn Wiggins (: 27:45

She would absolutely

bring the shovel. She would bring the shovel no matter what.

Andrea Knoche (: 27:48

Yeah. see?

Junie Moon (: 27:49

And each friendship is different.

Each friendship has a

Andrea Knoche (: 27:52

Yeah.

Junie Moon (: 27:53

different thing to it, you know? Maybe there's

Andrea Knoche (: 27:55

Mm.

Junie Moon (: 27:55

the once a year friendships. There's the everyday check in. I mean, if you have one of those. I and d the different seasons.

Dawn Wiggins (: 28:01

But we have never put expectations on each other to be where

Andrea Knoche (: 28:07

Mm.

Dawn Wiggins (: 28:07

the

other you know what I mean? there's just never been this

Laurie Gerber (: 28:10

Can you just

can you hear how idiosyncratic to you that is, Dawn? you have what you like. It's like dating. You have what you like. And Andrea has what she likes, and Ozzy has what she likes, and Judy has and Karen has. We all have what we like. And we're just revealing our hands here, right, to each other. Cause we all want to be each other's friends too. We're like,

Dawn Wiggins (: 28:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andrea Knoche (: 28:26

Yeah. Yeah.

Laurie Gerber (: 28:29

this is what I like. So I'm learning so much about each of you.

Right. Like I

Andrea Knoche (: 28:32

Yeah.

Laurie Gerber (: 28:33

really understand. Dawn

Dawn Wiggins (: 28:33

Who this one

Karen Viesta (: 28:34

Yeah.

Laurie Gerber (: 28:34

does not want expectations or guilt trips. She doesn't want to have to respond quickly. Right. You

Andrea Knoche (: 28:40

Yeah.

Laurie Gerber (: 28:40

know, and it's just interesting to see. I'm learning so much from this conversation about how different people

think about friendship and really and

Dawn Wiggins (: 28:49

Need them.

Laurie Gerber (: 28:49

your philosophies about friendships and your beliefs about friendships. And I could see all the ways in which it can go wrong when philosophies don't align. Because when philosophies don't align, then you don't take care of each other's emotional.

the emotional integrity of the thing, right? So if I don't agree with you, Don, that r that friendship happens in the ether, it doesn't happen on the phone. If I don't agree with you philosophically

Dawn Wiggins (: 29:11

but something I know about you, Lori, is that if I you need to feel pursued sometimes, right? And so that is a note in my brain and I will circle back on purpose because I know that's what you value. So I will operate outside of my tendency to honor your need in this friendship, right?

Laurie Gerber (: 29:25

Right. Love languages. Yes. Yes.

Dawn Wiggins (: 29:29

So it's not lost on me.

Junie Moon (: 29:30

But not as an expectation,

not as an expectation, but because you love her, because you

Dawn Wiggins (: 29:35

Yes.

Junie Moon (: 29:35

want to show up for her.

Laurie Gerber (: 29:36

Right.

Junie Moon (: 29:37

And that comes back to all relationships. It's like we want to give, we want to show up, but to whom and how without the but if you don't, then you're a bad girl, know? So

Andrea Knoche (: 29:47

Yeah.

Dawn Wiggins (: 29:47

Yeah.

Junie Moon (: 29:48

to find that that heart.

Ozzie Osborne (: 29:49

But is that expectation

or is that or is that 'cause that to me, I think it's healthy to have expectations 'cause I think you have an expectation of how you want to be treated and you have an expect right, there's it's part of drawing boundaries in relationships and knowing what what works for you, what doesn't work for you. Is that called expectation or is that called like are you pressure?

Laurie Gerber (: 30:06

Well, don't I don't mean to

say that she doesn't have expectations. She just has particularly or d that she doesn't want us to have expectations. She does not want us to have expectations about response time or phone time. She has she does want us to have expectations for

Andrea Knoche (: 30:21

Mm. Very specific.

Laurie Gerber (: 30:23

integrity, honesty, authenticity,

Ozzie Osborne (: 30:26

Right.

Laurie Gerber (: 30:27

owning your shit. to me, those are the important and that's I'm just revealing my hand, right? if somebody is not interested in

Andrea Knoche (: 30:32

Yeah.

Laurie Gerber (: 30:33

taking personal responsibility for their life.

doing deep inner personal work, I now know that's a deal breaker for me. That's like I don't really

Dawn Wiggins (: 30:37

Preached. Preach. It's a deal breaker. Yeah.

Ozzie Osborne (: 30:39

Right.

Laurie Gerber (: 30:41

care how much we talk, but if that's not in place, we're we're gonna have issues.

Ozzie Osborne (: 30:44

Right. But if they but if

but if they can't meet those expectations, I'm imagining you're going to reassess the level of which you're going to your input into this relationship, correct? Right.

Laurie Gerber (: 30:54

Right, right, right.

Junie Moon (: 30:55

So those are her expectations. Right.

Laurie Gerber (: 30:56

I don't think any of us is saying don't have expectations. Yeah.

Andrea Knoche (: 30:56

Yeah.

Junie Moon (: 30:59

It's just that Laurie doesn't have the expectation from Dawn to go out of her way to make sure that she's she's I forgot the language that you said. what did you say, Dawn, about about Lori that I know. Yeah,

Laurie Gerber (: 31:11

Pursuing me.

Junie Moon (: 31:12

yeah. So Lori doesn't have that

Dawn Wiggins (: 31:12

Beep the healing pursuit. Mm-hmm.

Andrea Knoche (: 31:13

Pursuing.

Junie Moon (: 31:14

expectation from Dawn. I expect Dawn to pursue me, but Dawn knows that in the realm of Laurie's

Expectations of what relationships are and what makes her feel good, Dawn wants to show up. So again, I I think it's semantics. I have expectations of what's aligned in how I want my relationships to go and how I want to be treated, for sure. And then there's that, but I don't expect anyone to do it. But if they don't, that may not be the alignment of the friendship that I want. It's like it's a little,

Ozzie Osborne (: 31:41

Yeah. Correct. Correct.

Dawn Wiggins (: 31:45

I do think integrity

the top expectation,

else I can work around, right? Integrity and personal responsibility and everything else I can flow with. I think.

Junie Moon (: 31:54

Huge. Yeah.

Dawn Wiggins (: 31:55

I think.

Andrea Knoche (: 31:56

Mm-hmm.

Dawn Wiggins (: 31:57

We'll see. But again, because I don't

Laurie Gerber (: 31:56

We'll we'll see. We w we we're your new friends,

Andrea Knoche (: 31:58

We'll see.

Laurie Gerber (: 32:01

so who knows?

Dawn Wiggins (: 32:01

Yeah, but

again, I don't think that in friendships, when we put all our eggs in one basket, it's like too it's like when your husband doesn't have people to talk to. You know what I mean? It's like it's too much pressure to be this one thing to this

Andrea Knoche (: 32:09

Yeah. They're everything.

Dawn Wiggins (: 32:12

one person, right? I do think we're supposed to have community so that

Andrea Knoche (: 32:17

Mm.

Dawn Wiggins (: 32:17

when this shit hits the fan, there's a phone list of people I can call. And if this one person isn't

Junie Moon (: 32:21

Right, not just one person.

Andrea Knoche (: 32:22

Mm.

Dawn Wiggins (: 32:22

unavailable, I don't have to be resentful or

Ozzie Osborne (: 32:25

Correct. Right. It's not it

you yeah, you can't put all right. You can't it's not one

Andrea Knoche (: 32:30

Mm-hmm.

Ozzie Osborne (: 32:30

person's responsibility to take

Laurie Gerber (: 32:33

okay, but Andrea the So I saw everything about that story was suspenseful for me until the end when you were like, and now we haven't been in touch again. that part I predicted. but

What that what that feels like to me is that that really was a seasonal friendship. It really was a seasonal friendship. And that it was

Andrea Knoche (: 32:50

Yeah. Yeah.

Laurie Gerber (: 32:53

o really okay, right, good, and in integrity for you guys to end, but not the way you end it, right? There was unresolved stuff. Right. And so the

Andrea Knoche (: 32:58

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I love that.

Junie Moon (: 33:01

Yes.

Laurie Gerber (: 33:02

fact that you got that closure and you got that resolution was a true evolution upgrade bonus round,

Andrea Knoche (: 33:08

Yeah.

Laurie Gerber (: 33:09

magic, whatever you want to call it.

But that doesn't

Junie Moon (: 33:11

Mm.

Laurie Gerber (: 33:11

mean you still belong together. I've been back to every ex-boyfriend

to resolve the shit that wasn't resolved. That's so powerful. We call it unraveling your hauntings. So powerful.

Andrea Knoche (: 33:20

Yeah.

Laurie Gerber (: 33:20

Doesn't mean you should be with the person, right? It it's the two

separate things. So I just wanted to to say that.

Ozzie Osborne (: 33:25

Yeah, it's a gi it's a gift

Andrea Knoche (: 33:25

Yeah. Yeah.

Ozzie Osborne (: 33:27

it's a gift to have closure.

Andrea Knoche (: 33:27

Yeah.

Yeah. And I love that you said that because I didn't really look at it that way. I've been sitting here going, I I've been doing a little bit of the well, I've reached out twice now. I'm not gonna reach out again, I'm in that mode. And then but now, talking it through, it's like maybe that is just the way it needed to end and we both got to share

Junie Moon (: 33:44

Mm.

Andrea Knoche (: 33:45

and apologize and we just do not align anymore like we did twenty-five years ago.

Laurie Gerber (: 33:51

Call that you you put the emotional integrity back into your relationship,

Andrea Knoche (: 33:55

Yeah.

Laurie Gerber (: 33:55

but if there's no spiritual integrity, and what I mean by that is philosophical alignment, you think

Andrea Knoche (: 34:00

Yeah.

Laurie Gerber (: 34:00

the same way about friendship, about what's valuable about

Andrea Knoche (: 34:03

Yeah.

Laurie Gerber (: 34:03

friendship, about how you show up as friends. If that's not aligned, and that's just how people were raised and what people believe. You don't want to

Andrea Knoche (: 34:09

Mm-hmm.

Laurie Gerber (: 34:10

change someone's mind about that stuff, right? If that's not aligned,

Andrea Knoche (: 34:12

Yeah.

Laurie Gerber (: 34:13

it's so okay to be like, have a great life. There's billions of people on

Andrea Knoche (: 34:17

Yeah.

Laurie Gerber (: 34:17

this planet, like it's it's okay.

Junie Moon (: 34:18

Yeah.

Laurie Gerber (: 34:19

We don't match with everybody at

Andrea Knoche (: 34:20

Yeah.

Laurie Gerber (: 34:21

all.

Ozzie Osborne (: 34:22

Right.

Andrea Knoche (: 34:22

That's so wild. And I've I always think about how I come across as a friend. And you well, I will gauge myself to other people. So I have one friend who is just really like, she is, she is the ride or die. She's done some shit that I'm like, girl, I would have never done that for you, but thank you. my God. and she's just awesome like that, right? if I'm like

I gotta move today and I really hate this. She will just show up. And it made me think the other day, I don't know if any of you have seen that show, The Madison. and it's with so good, right? Yes. And it's with Michelle

Junie Moon (: 34:50

love, love, love. I love that and that I know the scene you're gonna talk about. Yes, it was so powerful.

Andrea Knoche (: 34:55

Pfeiffer and Kurt Russell, and Michelle Pfeiffer's husband dies, and it's not a secret. That's how what the whole thing is about. And she calls her best friend and she says to her, Before you answer this question, I want you to really

think hard. And she said, Okay, and she goes,

Are you my friend? Are you my best friend? And she says, yes. And she said, then I need you. I need

Junie Moon (: 35:18

I love that scene.

Andrea Knoche (: 35:18

you. And she said, I'll be on a plane tomorrow morning. It's giving me chills. Right? Because yeah.

And she did. And she showed up and she was like, your friend is not the person that tells you what to do. She's the person that helps you do it. That's who your best friend is. Right. And there were so

Ozzie Osborne (: 35:33

yeah, huh, huh.

Andrea Knoche (: 35:34

many great lines in this. And I just really like.

Delve deep into that thinking, God, am I that friend for somebody? Am I that friend for that person that I know would do that for me? And so that's been a learning growth and path for me to to find how to be a better friend. That show made me really think about that. It was really, really something powerful. Yeah.

Junie Moon (: 35:53

Yeah.

Dawn Wiggins (: 35:54

How powerful. Wow, that's a huge plug.

Andrea Knoche (: 35:57

Yeah.

Karen Viesta (: 35:58

I think for me, my whole idea about friendship changed with my divorce. Because I think at that point, in addition to the end of my partnership,

all of my friendships were in flux. There were friends that were like the slow fade, maybe couple friends that I just started not seeing quite as often. There were friends where I just felt they really weren't there for me in the way that I would have imagined. So it was a little bit of a wake up call. And I think I was really very okay with because as

Dawn said, I don't like drama.

I wasn't at a point in my life where I could manage drama. And so for me, it was like this filter almost of all of my friendships. If they got through the divorce filter, I knew where people stood. And I've used this analogy

Dawn Wiggins (: 36:52

So good.

Andrea Knoche (: 36:52

Yeah.

Karen Viesta (: 36:53

before, but I think of my friendships like a stadium, right? Not everybody deserves a seat in the orchestra. There are some people who are in the nosebleed.

There are other people who are out in the parking lot. I just, don't,

Andrea Knoche (: 37:06

Ha ha ha.

Karen Viesta (: 37:07

I think there are, I don't have to completely get rid of a friend. I just have to know where in my life they fit. is, where are they

Ozzie Osborne (: 37:14

That's right.

Dawn Wiggins (: 37:14

Yes, we did.

Andrea Knoche (: 37:14

They fit. beautiful.

Junie Moon (: 37:15

I love that metaphor. Yeah.

Karen Viesta (: 37:17

in the scope of my world?

Junie Moon (: 37:19

Mm.

Karen Viesta (: 37:20

What I will say is that I am a little bit of a typical sadge in the sense that I a very loyal, very generous friend I feel

that I'm somebody who really values my connections, whether they're partnerships, friendships,

Andrea Knoche (: 37:33

Yeah.

Karen Viesta (: 37:34

whatever they are. But I have to feel that the other person values it equally. Because the minute that I don't, it is like that Sagittarian switch that gets flipped in my brain. And when I'm done, done. Like I am not like Andrea. I'm done.

Andrea Knoche (: 37:51

You're done.

Laurie Gerber (: 37:52

Yad ya dead, you dead same, you dead some me.

Karen Viesta (: 37:57

Like not in an aggressive way, but I'm done putting

Andrea Knoche (: 38:00

Yeah.

Karen Viesta (: 38:00

energy into something if I don't

Andrea Knoche (: 38:03

Yeah.

Karen Viesta (: 38:03

feel like it's acknowledged and reciprocated. So I'm not the friend like Andrea. I'm not the

Junie Moon (: 38:06

I'm s I'm so not a Sag. I'm so not a Sag.

Andrea Knoche (: 38:09

Yeah.

Karen Viesta (: 38:11

person who's going call a year later or text or, usually in my mind, I'm very clear on which friendships are valuable to me and which friendships.

which people value me equally. And

Andrea Knoche (: 38:26

Mm.

Laurie Gerber (: 38:26

Nice.

Karen Viesta (: 38:27

so I haven't had a lot of dramatic friendship breakups. I've just placed people in different places within my

Ozzie Osborne (: 38:35

Categories.

Karen Viesta (: 38:35

stadium, yeah.

Laurie Gerber (: 38:37

Yeah.

Karen Viesta (: 38:37

Now that being said, there was one friendship that I deliberately ended and it was because it was someone I was very close to and I just started feeling a series of little

betrayals of trust. And again, it's like that switch went off and I just said, you know what, we're not going to be friends. It happens to be somebody who I see regularly, who I have to see regularly. So I couldn't cut them out completely, but they're in the parking lot. And I'm clear on that. And I can be, we can be social, we

Andrea Knoche (: 39:09

Yeah.

Karen Viesta (: 39:12

can be cordial, we can be polite, but it's superficial. And again, I'm okay with that. I don't have...

resentment, just in my mind, I know where she fits, in the scheme of my life. So, yeah.

Ozzie Osborne (: 39:24

Mm. But you you remind

me of have you have you heard of Brene Brown talking about what she did with her daughter and the jar of marbles?

Dawn Wiggins (: 39:33

Mm. Marble jar.

Ozzie Osborne (: 39:34

Mm-hmm. So

Karen Viesta (: 39:34

No.

Junie Moon (: 39:34

I don't remember.

Ozzie Osborne (: 39:35

yeah, so she explains that every friendship is its own jar and that every act of honesty, reliability, consistency, all all you add a marble to every time you know one of your friends does something that that adds to that. And every broken promise removes a marble out.

Right. So it's it's it's how

Andrea Knoche (: 39:54

Yeah.

Ozzie Osborne (: 39:54

she taught her kids to understand trust and who's right. it's like what you

Junie Moon (: 39:59

Wow.

Ozzie Osborne (: 40:00

you explain,

Andrea Knoche (: 40:00

Wow.

Ozzie Osborne (: 40:01

who

Karen Viesta (: 40:01

Yeah.

Ozzie Osborne (: 40:01

which one of your friends is sitting in in the orchestra and which one is in the parking lot. Right. It's it's it's you're it it trust is built, right? It's not

Karen Viesta (: 40:06

Right, that's so interesting. Yeah.

Andrea Knoche (: 40:07

Yeah.

Ozzie Osborne (: 40:10

just it's not earned overnight. It's

Andrea Knoche (: 40:10

Yeah.

Ozzie Osborne (: 40:13

it's something that that takes

effort and time and and sometimes you're gonna take the the the marbles out, but then at the end of the day for a good, I think, solid friendship, you have a nice full jar of marbles and and you get all your marbles.

Karen Viesta (: 40:26

Yeah, you have all your money.

Laurie Gerber (: 40:26

You have all your marbles

Junie Moon (: 40:28

Yeah.

Laurie Gerber (: 40:29

which is considered a good thing.

Karen Viesta (: 40:30

And that's also

why I think big

Andrea Knoche (: 40:32

Yeah.

Karen Viesta (: 40:33

life changes, and Juni, you had touched on this earlier,

Laurie Gerber (: 40:36

Yeah.

Karen Viesta (: 40:37

that's why big life changes impact our relationships,

because it does become like a filter, especially

Junie Moon (: 40:45

Yeah.

Karen Viesta (: 40:45

when our bandwidth is What am I really investing in and why? is that, as Laurie said, in integrity?

Andrea Knoche (: 40:53

Mm.

Junie Moon (: 40:53

Yeah.

Karen Viesta (: 40:54

It was an interesting time in my life, but I think my whole view of friendship now has changed since my divorce.

Junie Moon (: 41:02

And I think

Andrea Knoche (: 41:03

Mm.

Junie Moon (: 41:03

in the second half of life, this conversation is is so important to see. We've changed our discernment,

Dawn Wiggins (: 41:11

Yeah.

Junie Moon (: 41:12

what our needs are, what we see, how many marbles are left in the jar, This

Andrea Knoche (: 41:17

Yeah.

Junie Moon (: 41:17

is definitely a second half of life conversation, I think, because we have gone through a journey with some people, new people, older people, and it's like

Where are we now with these people and with the skill sets that we all have, the relationship tools that we all have to navigate this? And it can be a little messy because life can be a little messy. So I love this conversation.

Ozzie Osborne (: 41:39

Mm-hmm.

Laurie Gerber (: 41:39

Gosh.

Andrea Knoche (: 41:39

Yeah.

Dawn Wiggins (: 41:40

It's

Laurie Gerber (: 41:41

Messy midlife.

Andrea Knoche (: 41:41

Yeah.

Ozzie Osborne (: 41:42

Lowery

Andrea Knoche (: 41:43

Yeah.

Ozzie Osborne (: 41:43

your turn.

Andrea Knoche (: 41:45

Lloyd.

Junie Moon (: 41:45

Lori, whatcha got?

Laurie Gerber (: 41:45

Well, you guys have

you've really made me think, and here's here's here's some a thought I've never had before, which is being raised as a twin, I always had a playmate built into my life in my family. And then I met Will, my darling husband, when I was eighteen.

So I have never not had a primary playmate that I had complete access to almost on a regular basis. Because I'm sitting here going, why don't I seem to care about friendships like these people care? why am I? I'm like closest

Andrea Knoche (: 42:15

Yeah.

Laurie Gerber (: 42:16

to can I'm closest to Karen. you you sit over there, But but for the re the rest of you, I'm just like, why am I not like you? Right. And so

Junie Moon (: 42:24

Interesting.

Andrea Knoche (: 42:24

Yeah.

Laurie Gerber (: 42:25

I do think that I have I will I don't know if spoiled is the right word, but pri or privileged or just this is my life context, my lived experience is that I have not needed a lot of friends. I have had friends, but I that has not been a driving force of a need. and I've also become very good friends with people in my work. And so

Andrea Knoche (: 42:46

Mm.

Laurie Gerber (: 42:47

I've always had a feeling of community, a feeling of some,

fun and humor and things, the a lot of what I get, what I think people get from friendship, I have gotten from my family, from my husband, and from my work communities. And that continues

Junie Moon (: 42:59

Mm.

Laurie Gerber (: 43:00

to be true to this day. But there were two major life events that happened that clarified friendship and I think shifted friendship for me in a way that is very midlife. One is that my very dear friend, who I had more of a a

Teacher student relationship with, because I do like befriending people who can teach me things. That also turns me on. But I one of my dear friends who I had that kind of relationship with went through a divorce, moved across the world, lost her bit, her life completely changed in midlife. completely. And all of a sudden I had this choice of what kind of friend am I gonna be? And a lot of her friends disappeared. And so I was.

But this is my sweet spot because I am the there when you need me friend. That is what I like to give in a friendship. And so that's my love language. That's how I like to express friendship. I don't really want to be there if you don't need me. I'm not that interested in that because I'd rather I'd rather be working or helping someone who needs me. So I what I became that kind of friend with her. And our relationship changed completely to one of mutual care, really. And that was a very different, very different kind of friendship.

The other thing that happened was that my dad died, which is, the loss of a parent is a very common thing in midlife. So I think a lot of people go through friendship re-evaluation when they get divorced, when a parent dies, when you have a problem with your kid, when you become an empty nester, like these kinds of moments where you're like, wait, who am I? What's my life? Who's there for me? Who are my people? And in that moment,

I actually became way more vulnerable and accessible to the people who I would consider to be my friends. Let's go all the way back to high school, because that's really

Ozzie Osborne (: 44:36

Yeah.

Laurie Gerber (: 44:36

when I made friends, that friends for life. And those people were they showed up in varying degrees of excellence, let's put it, in my opinion,

Andrea Knoche (: 44:47

Mm-hmm.

Laurie Gerber (: 44:47

to meet to meet that moment.

But I was able to talk with them. I was able to use my tools and say, this is how this makes me feel. This is what I need. This is what I want. And then the amount that they rose to the occasion and we and we really created a new kind of friendship. And the new kind of friendship we created was the daily ch like the kind you mentioned, Juni, where it's like, I just want to know how you're doing today. how's your vagina? How's your headache?

Andrea Knoche (: 45:10

Mm-hmm.

Laurie Gerber (: 45:11

How's your kid? How's your husband or your boyfriend? How's your pets? How's like

How's the weather where you are? and literally we voice note every day practically to each other.

Andrea Knoche (: 45:20

Yeah.

Laurie Gerber (: 45:21

And we have this collective therapeutic environment, which d I didn't e I wouldn't have thought I needed, honestly, before I lost my dad and went through midlife and started menopause and have tr all the tr this transition and all the pressure that midlife brings. I d wouldn't have thought I needed daily therapeutic,

Junie Moon (: 45:38

Mm.

Laurie Gerber (: 45:39

friendship. But that

Dawn Wiggins (: 45:40

Attack. Yeah.

Andrea Knoche (: 45:41

touches. Touches.

Laurie Gerber (: 45:41

That is what I need. That

Junie Moon (: 45:41

Connection.

Laurie Gerber (: 45:42

is what I need right now. And that's what is being provided now. So I seasons. Yeah.

Andrea Knoche (: 45:47

Mm seasons.

Karen Viesta (: 45:48

Yeah. And

I think good

Junie Moon (: 45:50

You know

Karen Viesta (: 45:50

friends help you process everything that you're going through. A really good friend can be

Dawn Wiggins (: 45:52

Yes, yes, yes.

Karen Viesta (: 45:56

at times a mirror, at times someone to challenge the way you're thinking. think that's why we especially gravitate to our friends during those really difficult seasons. We need that, just that person who's able to help us.

Laurie Gerber (: 46:13

Witness. Yep.

Karen Viesta (: 46:13

makes sense of everything when it feels

like nothing makes sense.

Andrea Knoche (: 46:15

Yep.

Junie Moon (: 46:17

Mm.

Andrea Knoche (: 46:17

Yeah.

Ugh.

Ozzie Osborne (: 46:18

And every friend,

as we said, serves a different purpose. Or we have the friend that we just wanna just be silly with, right? And then we have

Andrea Knoche (: 46:24

Yeah.

Ozzie Osborne (: 46:24

the friend w which is just very light and maybe not very spiritual. And then you have the friend that you really wanna you you enjoy going deep with. You enjoy talking about really important things.

Andrea Knoche (: 46:33

Mm.

Ozzie Osborne (: 46:33

And then you have friends that are again, it's it it varies. I I mm I have so many things to say about friendships.

Andrea Knoche (: 46:41

I think the best part is seeing it progress throughout the years or those that you do lose and coming to terms with that, but then meeting new ones along the way is like exciting as well, because then you meet ones that you are

Laurie Gerber (: 46:51

New love.

Andrea Knoche (: 46:52

even yeah, and you're even more aligned with than you have ever been. And so some some holes get filled in a different way, which is really a neat feeling, right?

Dawn Wiggins (: 47:00

Well said. Well

said.

Junie Moon (: 47:02

Mm.

Andrea Knoche (: 47:03

Yeah.

Laurie Gerber (: 47:03

Sho I

feel like we should close on that note and do another episode about new friendships

Andrea Knoche (: 47:06

Yeah. Yeah.

Laurie Gerber (: 47:08

in midlife.

Ozzie Osborne (: 47:10

We let go of the old. Now we're moving on to the new.

Andrea Knoche (: 47:13

on to the new. Okay.

Laurie Gerber (: 47:13

'Cause we needed to do that first.

Andrea Knoche (: 47:15

Ladies, what a powerful conversation. And this went in directions we didn't think it was gonna go, which is the beauty of doing these podcast episodes, right? And and joining together to have these conversations.

If today's conversation reminded you of a friend that you've lost, a friendship you've outgrown, or someone who's been by your side through every season, we'd love for you to share this episode with them. So don't forget you can find us everywhere, the Menopause Love Lounge. Leave us a review, follow us wherever you watch, listen to your podcast, full episodes on YouTube. Everything helps. That's all we got for this week, guys. We'll see you guys next week. Bye-bye.

Junie Moon (: 47:48

Mm.

Karen Viesta (: 47:49

Bye.